Type Blend versus Varietal Blend

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Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 11/27/2008 9:50:22 PM

iByron

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I'd like some guidance as to when to use a "Type" Blend ("Red Blend," "Rosé Blend," "White Blend") as opposed to a specific "Varietal" blend ("Zinfandel Blend," "Chardonnay Blend," etc.) in the Varietal field.

I can think of a number of rules that would work -- a wine that meets varietal labeling guidelines for Zinfandel (a least 75%) but isn't labeled Zinfandel could get "Zinfandel Blend" but anything with no varietals weighing in at 75% or more is just a "Red Blend"** -- but I can't find any rhyme or reason for why some things are labeled as they are. There are wines with just over 50% of one varietal called (e.g.) "Zinfandel Blend" and there are wines with 70 on up to 90 percent one varietal that are called "Red Blend" or "White Blend."

Whatever the rule is, a mass cleanup would be a daunting task. It would still be nice if going forward when I hit something that's out of whack we could fix it. It's all about database integrity after all.

Thanks,
Byron

**And I'm not suggesting it should be that way, just saying that I could fathom the reasoning.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 12/2/2008 3:31:27 PM

tommyvernieri

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I'm with you on this, Byron. It does seem to be the biggest area of CT data that's inconsistent.

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Post #: 2

RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 2/3/2009 2:50:19 PM

iByron

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I think I'm going to follow the above logic when I'm creating a new wine or revising an existing one for other reasons.

• If it's varietally labeled, it gets the varietal.
• If I can verify the composition, and:
- it meets the 75% rule for varietal labeling but isn't varietally labeled, it gets "Varietal Blend" for the dominant varietal (e.g., Zinfandel Blend").
- it doesn't meet the 75% criteria for varietal labeling, it gets the appropriate "Type Blend" (e.g., "Red Blend")
- it meets the CT definition of a special type blend (e.g. "Red Bordeaux Blend" or "Red Rhône Blend" or "Port Blend"), it gets the appropriate "Special Type Blend"
• If none of the above is true, it gets the appropriate "Type Blend"

I won't request new Varietal Blends if they don't already exist. If a Two-Grape Blend (e.g. "Cabernet-Syrah Blend") is in the database and already used for similar wines, I'll use it. I won't request new Two-Grape Blends, either (though I do think "Shiraz-Viognier Blend" might be common enough to warrant a place).

That's just my own logic in the absence of anything official. Not a suggestion, just documenting for my own piece of mind.

Byron

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Post #: 3

RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 2/6/2009 12:29:45 PM

Eric

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This is really good Byron, very similar/identical to how I approach. Thanks for taking the time to detail it.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 12/29/2009 10:09:01 AM

HitAnyKey

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I don't know about other people, but IMHO I would prefer if we used something more along a 65% varietal blend type rule or such. There are a very large number of wine blends with their dominant varietal being in the 60-percentile bracket. And I sort my cellar so often using the Varietal sort to choose what I might like to drink, that it gets a little frustrating having no clue what grapes are in MANY wines in my cellar categorized as simply "Red Blend". Knowing what the dominant grape is, is a really nice thing to know. And currently I have to click on each individual wine in my Red Blend section and scroll down to see if the blend is listed in the description.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/26/2010 10:02:21 AM

HitAnyKey

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Eric and/or others, what are your thoughts on the two-grape blend varietal designations? Personally, I think more of the wines out there should use them. When I sort my cellar by Varietal, I see so many bottles as just "Red Blend" or "Red Rhone Blend" and then have to go through them bottle by bottle sometimes to try to choose what I want to open (if I'm trying to choose something based on the grapes, which I often do) and it would be so much nicer if I could see the wines grouped by more specific varietal labels.
Is there any reason not to change the varietal of wines to be more specific than just Red Blend?

Maybe using something like if a wine is at least 50% one grape and at least 25 or 30% another grape, then you could call it "Grape1-Grape2 Blend"?

< Message edited by HitAnyKey -- 4/26/2010 10:23:12 AM >

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/26/2010 10:41:31 AM

Eric

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Byron's methodology above is what I prefer to stick with.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/26/2010 11:03:23 AM

HitAnyKey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

Byron's methodology above is what I prefer to stick with.

How do you decide when/if to add a new two-grape varietal blend? Or more specifically, what should we look for to see if it's worthy of requesting you to add a new two-grape blend? :)

I see there are a good number out there, and even some three-grape varietals (such as Cabernet-Merlot-Shiraz). So I'm trying to see what kind of methodoligy should be used for the two-grape varietals. If going by Byron's 75%, the Merlot Blend would be used there were at least 75% Merlot. When would the Merlot-Syrah Blend be used? How much Merlot, how much Syrah?

(Yeah I know, I'm getting a little technical....it's in my genes.

)

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/26/2010 11:06:23 AM

Eric

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The ones that are there are older ones from the dark days back in 2004 when people used to be able to add their own. Simply haven;t had a chance to go back and clean them out.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 5/2/2011 4:57:08 PM

adroit1

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Eric,

Any suggestion on what variety to use for a Cremant de Loire with 80% Chenin and 20% Cab Franc?
I just copied a very similar wine and it has Champagne blend which clearly is not correct, and would like
to clean it up.

Thanks,

BJ

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Post #: 10

RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 5/2/2011 5:05:27 PM

Eric

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At greater than 80% Chenin Blanc I would just use Chenin Blanc. Or if that bugs you then White Blend.

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Post #: 11

RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 5/7/2012 2:47:14 PM

Eric

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BTW, Andrew Hall has been making a strong push to eliminate some of the oddball, older multi-variety blends that don't really fit this philosophy. So as of this writing, we are now rid of:

Cabernet-Merlot
Cabernet-Merlot-Shiraz
Cabernet-Tempranillo
Cabernet-Mourvedre blend

These all date from the earlier days of the database before the variety display code was even fully fleshed out (varieties with " blend" in the name are never displayed) and the philosophy was still a bit looser.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 5/16/2012 8:24:10 AM

quaglia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

BTW, Andrew Hall has been making a strong push to eliminate some of the oddball, older multi-variety blends that don't really fit this philosophy. So as of this writing, we are now rid of:

Cabernet-Merlot

Cabernet-Merlot-Shiraz

Cabernet-Tempranillo

Cabernet-Mourvedre blend

These all date from the earlier days of the database before the variety display code was even fully fleshed out (varieties with " blend" in the name are never displayed) and the philosophy was still a bit looser.

...all this were moved to...red blend...right???
where can I find the CT definition for rhone blend, supertuscan...etc??
Thanks!

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 5/16/2012 8:29:09 AM

Eric

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Cabernet-Merlot all became Red Bordeaux Blend, but many thousands of wines needed their Designation field adjust if Cabernet-Merlot was to appear on the label. The rest did likely nearly all end up as Red Blend. We are talking about roughly 2,000 wines in a database of 1.25 million wines...

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 5/17/2012 12:08:20 AM

quaglia

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Ok! so I changed this https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1381061 from red blend to red Bordeaux blend...
Is there a definition for the other blend?

Cheers...and, if you need some help with the database, just let me know!

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 5/17/2012 7:49:52 AM

Eric

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The Wiki has some definitions: https://www.cellartracker.com/list.asp?Table=CTWiki&iUserOverride=0&JoinType=Varietal

< Message edited by Eric -- 5/17/2012 7:50:12 AM >

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/29/2013 5:16:54 PM

dwilliamsoz

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Just came back from wine trip to Barossa Valley (great tasting of course), now many wine makers are using the term GSM (Grenache, Shiraz, Merlot) blend but it varies from vineyard to vineyard the proportion and even what is the dominant wine. Do not think we will ever come up with a solution for everyone. My approach is to put it in as a blend then if I really want to add the composition in the bottle notes.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/29/2013 5:58:24 PM

dwilliamsoz

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Sorry to weigh into this discussion from the other side of the world, in Australia the winemakers were prevented a few years ago from using any of the French terms, hence no Australian wine can be referred to as Bordeaux blend, it will always be Cabernet Sauvignon, Shiraz Merlot etc.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/29/2013 6:29:08 PM

Eric

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That isn't really relevant. By definition, any variety that includes the word "Blend" will not be included in the wine name. That however does not change the CELLARTRACKER STANDARD. Multi-variety stuff, if appearing on the front label as part of a wine name, should be included in the Designation field. The GSM example is a Red Rhone Blend in CellarTracker. Period. What appears in the designation however needs to reflect upon the prominent wine name used by the winery. Not the niggly piggly of a back label or a datasheet.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 1/22/2014 3:29:30 AM

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Hi Eric,
Great site and software. I've just started with it and will happily subscribe once I've put it though it's paces. I previously used uncorked since 2004 but love the online accessibility of Cellar tracker.

I understand that you do not want to add cabernet-merlot and prefer users to stick with Red Blend, however Cab/Franc, Cab Sauv, and Cab/Shiraz exist in the varieties available in Cellar tracker. Excuse my ignorance (I'm certainly no expert, just love a drop of the squeezed grape) but isn't Cab/Merlot just another one of those mixed varieties?

Also as stated by dwilliamsoz, Our wine in Australia is not allowed to use French provinces as a variety. So we don't even have Champagne any more, it's all sparkling White. Australia has quite a large (and growing) wine market and it seems a shame not to be able to list their wines under the variety they are sold as.
For now I'll add Cab/Merlot as the designation but would appreciate clarity on the above difference between some multi blends being listed and others are not.

-Kind regards,
Ue.

< Message edited by Ue -- 1/22/2014 3:32:38 AM >

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 1/22/2014 4:36:57 AM

andrew

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A Cabernet-Merlot blend should be categorized as "Red Bordeaux Blend" in CellarTracker. I am not sure I understand part of what you are saying. Cabernet Franc is a separate and distinct grape whereas Cabernet-Merlot is shorthand for saying the wine is made of two different grapes, Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot, that are blended together usually at the time of bottling. None of these are hybrid grapes (at least in modern times.)

We eliminated Cabernet-Merlot blend because it was redundant with Red Bordeaux Blend (the five classic and regulated grapes of Bordeaux - Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, Petit Verdot and Malbec with the latter two being uncommon.) This was causing duplicate entries when the same wine was entered both ways. We have some other historical blends like Red Rhone Blend. Cabernet-Shiraz blend is there because it is not a blend from a particular region, but is a historical and important blend from Australia (and then elsewhere.) It is common enough to warrant its own category vs calling it 'Shiraz Blend.'

Hope that makes it clearer.

Thanks,

A.

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Post #: 21

RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/9/2014 12:41:20 PM

champagneinhand

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quote:

ORIGINAL: andrew

A Cabernet-Merlot blend should be categorized as "Red Bordeaux Blend" in CellarTracker. I am not sure I understand part of what you are saying. Cabernet Franc is a separate and distinct grape whereas Cabernet-Merlot is shorthand for saying the wine is made of two different grapes, Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot, that are blended together usually at the time of bottling. None of these are hybrid grapes (at least in modern times.)

We eliminated Cabernet-Merlot blend because it was redundant with Red Bordeaux Blend (the five classic and regulated grapes of Bordeaux - Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, Petit Verdot and Malbec with the latter two being uncommon.) This was causing duplicate entries when the same wine was entered both ways. We have some other historical blends like Red Rhone Blend. Cabernet-Shiraz blend is there because it is not a blend from a particular region, but is a historical and important blend from Australia (and then elsewhere.) It is common enough to warrant its own category vs calling it 'Shiraz Blend.'

Hope that makes it clearer.

Thanks,

A.

This is very good. I hope the same is applicable to white bordeaux blends, which can be made up of a combination of just Sauvignon Blanc, or SB, with Semillion, or the combination of SB, Semillion and Muscadet. For the single SB, I guess it should go in as a singular varietal, but they are always labeled as Bordeaux, and using the blend with the 2 grape or 3 grape and even a single in the case of Chateau Climens brings up another category of dessert wines from Sauternes, Barsac and across the river as well.

I know this is your department, but shouldn't we have a distinct difference between those that are dessert blends aka the greater Sauternes, and then the dry Bordeaux blends, typically the dry wines of Graves and other LB Chateaux?

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/12/2017 4:30:39 AM

marcotaiana

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First of all let me say CellarTracker is an amazing website and app. Congrats!
I think every aspect is well designed and properly working but... yes there is one big BUT "varietal" is not well projected and getting more and more inconsistent and because is not properly designed needs "instructions" / artificial rules (as demonstrated in this forum thread).

The most important missed point in designing that field in the database are:
1) varietal is about the wine grape species-variety not about wine style! You can have same grape variety for two completely different wine style (as much a Champagne vs a full bodied red Canadian wine); at same time you can have same wine style with two complexly different grape variety (think of Champagne Blanc de Blanc 100% Chardonnay vs Blanc de Noir 100% Pinot Noire)

2) in most wines you use more then one grape variety

My suggestion is start again redesigning that field:

A) Because of point 1) we need to get rid of all the "nnnn bland" definition... That concern wine style or style habits but for instance there is not such a thing like one single "Champagne Blend"....

B) Because of point 2) we need a multiple keywords approach to this database field; not a single definition.

C) when you register a new wine default keyword for the varietal field is "undisclosed"; then, very intuitively, if reported on the label or officially declared by the producer (i.e. website, press release, etc) anyone can add the grape variety... and forget percentage!!!
Now we have "Champagne Blend" but not all the wines use the 3 famous grape variety... For instance Dom Pérignon doesn't report anything on label but Moet&Chandon stated is using Pinot Noire and Chardonnay only for Cuvée DP.
Grape variety field should help us in BETTER UNDESTANDING what we are drinking not to replicate / duplicate (/ mislead?? ) what other field (i.e. Wine style: champagne) already told us about that wine.

D) keep the correct and well working Multi-Local definition approach for same grape variety : i.e. Pinot Noir / Pinot Nero

Thank you Eric for considering my idea.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/12/2017 7:21:12 PM

andrew

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Thanks for the feedback. There are aspects of the variety listings that we would do differently if we were starting from scratch but are now baked into CellarTracker in ways that can't readily be undone. Sorry, but we can't change these things.

One side comment : While educational elements are important, the over-riding concern is cellar management and having consistency in the data. Categories like 'Red Rhone Blend' or 'Champagne blend' are fairly well understood across the wine world. While using those might not be the choice we'd make now, it works really, really well in keep the data straight. We have weekly tasks which find duplicates between items like 'red rhone blend' and 'red blend' and they return very few items, essentially noise.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/12/2017 8:53:35 PM

marcotaiana

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Dear Andrew,

Thanks for your quick reply. Yes you must keep the focus in Cellar Management.
Let's imagine you manage a nice restaurant cellar. You want to extend the range of your Chianti without create overlapping situations. Because you are a smart manager and a skilled sommelier you buy two additional labels of Chianti Classico: one is the classic "San Giovese Blend" and the other one is "Sangiovese in purezza" (San Giovese only). How can you keep track of this in actual CT use?

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 4/14/2017 8:15:46 PM

andrew

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One would be listed as Sangiovese and the other as Sangiovese Blend in CT.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 11/17/2017 7:08:12 PM

alohashirt

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This stuff is hard.

The Prisoner, typically described as a Zinfandel blend, AFAIK has between 42% and 48% Zinfandel.
Does the phrase "Zinfandel blend" add more information than "red blend", ?

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 3/9/2019 7:22:48 PM

WetRock

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Instead of sending in a ticket I thought posting here might be better for all.

I was looking at the listing for the new Ridge bottling called Demostene Ranch. The wine is actually 50% Carignan and 50% Zinfandel. It's listed as a Zinfandel or Zinfandel blend. That at best seems unsatisfactory and worst, misleading. I understand CT does not seek to be a catalog but I would think some clarity could be useful.

Is Zinfandel Blend how CT would prefer to list this wine given the blend? Or is there a 50/50 designation I should search for? Or maybe Red Blend is more appropriate?

Thanks for any answers.

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 3/10/2019 6:33:09 AM

andrew

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You are correct - Red Blend. Updated.

Thanks for the note!

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RE: Type Blend versus Varietal Blend - 8/21/2019 4:38:39 PM

YoRi

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Hummm, I had the project to post what I also considered a "weak aspect" of CT that bugs me often, ... after reading so many posts I realize the complexity underneath the aspect of specifying varietal vs blend.
When the information is of real importance for me, as some Chateauneuf varietal list from a specific producer I will mark it down in the My Private Note section.

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Post #: 30