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Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/19/2024 7:12:56 AM

Echinosum

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I've seen various articles suggesting that Montefalco Sagrantino is the new Etna, the interesting and good value Italian wine that will have you abandoning your Piedmont and Tuscany purchases. I did have a couple of bottles of Adanti's Montefalco Sagrantino Arquata 30-odd years ago, and thought it was excellent. So I sometimes think, I wouldn't mind buying a bit of Sagrantino. But since the retailer who sold me those bottles closed down between me buying them and opening them, I have hardly ever seen it for sale in Britain since. Or when I do it is outrageously expensive. Even though there has apparently been this large increase in production. (There is a wine on the market from an online supermarket, but it is rather cheaper than anything else, and I don't think the name on the label is a grower, so I'm a bit suspicious of it.)

Sagrantino is a grape variety mostly grown in Montefalco in Umbria. There is also Montefalco Rosso, which is something like 90% Sangiovese typically, so forget that. I read the area of land under Sagrantino grew about 150% between 2000 and 2010.

When you look for it on-line, basically the people who are selling it into the UK market are Italian-based retailers, keeping their stock in Italy, like vino.com and tannico.co.uk. So if you buy it from them it is an international consignment to send it to you. I regularly buy my Chinese tea by importing it direct from China, so perhaps I shouldn't be so resistant to the idea of buying Italian wine direct from Italy. But there are no tax issues buying tea mail order internationally, and it isn't fragile. The wine sellers imply that they pay all the taxes, and it arrives in under a week. But ultimately I remain a bit suspicious about why these wines aren't being stocked by UK retailers.

Then there's the structure of prices which is a bit off-putting. It's what I call the missing middle. I have a similar issue with red Douro table wines, which is why I drink rather less Douro than I would like. What it is you get a layer of wines being sold at one price point, the basic wines of the reasonably reputable producers - in the case of the Sagrantino this lower level is about £20-£25 (inc tax), such as the Adanti Arquata I mentioned above. But then the next level up is at least double that price. Whereas when I buy Bordeaux, Chianti, etc, I tend to buy into the "middle", above the basic decent level, but below the prestige level. That "middle" is where I find quality and value. So when that middle is missing, I worry I'm going to be a bit disappointed with what I get. It might be OK, a 90, but won't feel like it can be better. I was hoping to find something a bit special, but not more expensive than anything else I buy.

Any thoughts on why it seems so difficult to get reacquainted with Sagrantino in Britain, and why the market looks like this?

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/19/2024 7:48:48 AM

davo22

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Sagrantino is definitely an acquired taste and definitely not for everyone. Best comparison is probably that it's Italy's Tannat. Definitely not for early consumption, but I'm finding that more recently winemakers seem to have it reaching a better spot at an earlier age than they certainly did 10-15 years or so ago. So whereas I probably wouldn't have even attempted to approach a 2010 Sagrantino before it had 8-10 years of aging, you can probably approach a 2017 or 2018 after 6 or 7 years. Certainly what I found on my last tour through Umbria.

All of that said it's a big wine and does pair well with a lot of Umbrian food - those big Umbrian rich stews and soups for sure. As for price points, I can't speak for the UK. But I think the fact that it's going to have seen some bottle aging before it ever hits retail means you're never going to see a Montefalco Sagrantino at really sweet spot pricing. But here we see them starting around CA$30 (about GBP 18 currently) and running up to CA$50. I can't recall ever seeing one outside of that price range here. We are not seeing anything beyond a 2016 vintage yet. And they don't have the volumes of Rioja in Montefalco to take some pricing hit on the bottle aging (that the producer is doing for you before purchase). You won't find many big producers on the hillsides of Montefalco.

As for Montefalco Rosso, it's a regular day table wine, generally pretty inexpensive, and you're probably going to find better Sangiovese from the neighbour to Umbria.

I'd find it a real stretch to think that Montefalco is the new Etna. I just don't see enough people gravitating towards a big tannic wine like they would to many of the fresh and bright wines of Etna. And the food pairing is a whole lot more limited.

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/19/2024 9:07:22 AM

ClausP

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There's probably several reasons why it's hard to find. I would guess that if it's mainly small producers, then they can't be bothered with exporting outside the EU unless there's a real economic advantage.

This could also be the reason there aren't so many different quality layers, maybe 80% of production goes to the basic wine, so you don't have the volume to make many other qualities.

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/19/2024 9:40:42 AM

jmcmchi

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The only one I’ve had was from Cecchi, but they don’t seem to have a current release

I’d look for Australian producers who are introducing it as part of their plans to adapt to climate change.
I’ve enjoyed Heathvale in Eden Valley and I’m hoping to try Mitolo’s or Olivers Tarango on my next visit to McLaren Vale - maybe even D’Arenberg’s

< Message edited by jmcmchi -- 4/19/2024 9:41:26 AM >

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/19/2024 11:32:27 PM

ericindc

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wow, Sagrantino the new Etna. I guess maybe, but holy crap are they different types of wines. Sagrantino's are big powerful, massively tannic wines that really are best at 20+ years old. They get complex, but are certainly not subtle. Very different than Nerello Mascalese which I generally think of as closer to Nebbiolo/pinot body.

I've really only found Paolo Bea's and Arnaldo-Caprai's Sagrantinos exceptional, but havent tried them all.

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/20/2024 1:22:26 AM

mutwonmax

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Hi. Have you tried Vivino? I looked up Sagrantino there and they seem to offer some wines in the 30 to 50 GBP range with delivery in Britain. By the sound of their names (e.g. shelved wine) the retailers seem to be placed in Britain.

I occasionally order wine directly from France (to Germany that is though) and I haven't had any problems, other than slightly higher freight cost. I place these orders neither in winter and especially not in summer. Granted, France to Germany is a shorter route than from Italy to Britain...

< Message edited by mutwonmax -- 4/20/2024 1:23:32 AM >

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/20/2024 1:48:09 AM

Paul852

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xtrawine (an Italian company but with, I believe, a UK warehouse) currently offers 18 different Sagrantinos from £19.80 to £60.40.

https://www.xtrawine.com/uk/en/products?search=sagrantino

Their HK operation is by far my biggest supplier and I find them very reliable.

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/21/2024 2:43:09 AM

Echinosum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852
xtrawine (an Italian company but with, I believe, a UK warehouse) currently offers 18 different Sagrantinos from £19.80 to £60.40.

https://www.xtrawine.com/uk/en/products?search=sagrantino

Their HK operation is by far my biggest supplier and I find them very reliable.

Thanks, at least for identifying something that google wasn't finding and the regular customer vote of confidence.

Since they are delivering by FedEx, I think it unlikely the wine is coming from a UK warehouse. FedEx doesn't really offer internal internet deliveries in UK, at least I've never seen it. But they are certaintly structuring it as just-like-buying-in-UK-so-far-as-you-can-tell.

Perhaps I should try them.

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/22/2024 7:40:45 PM

recotte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

wow, Sagrantino the new Etna. I guess maybe, but holy crap are they different types of wines. Sagrantino's are big powerful, massively tannic wines that really are best at 20+ years old. They get complex, but are certainly not subtle. Very different than Nerello Mascalese which I generally think of as closer to Nebbiolo/pinot body.

I've really only found Paolo Bea's and Arnaldo-Caprai's Sagrantinos exceptional, but havent tried them all.

Many years ago, it was a Sagrantino that pushed me with a very firm shove down the slippery slope of wine collecting, insofar as it was the first wine I had sampled, at that point, that truly had a sense of place. It cemented the notion of terroir in my mind, my "aha moment," if you will. As such, it has a special place in my heart, and I always have some in my cellar. In my experience, Paolo Bea and Arnaldo-Caprai are indeed the best, most reliable producers.

With that said, the new Etna? I had the exact same reaction, as ericindc. Wow! Holy crap! I don't see it. As noted, massively, head implodingly tannic, very unapproachable for years. I just don't see that having mass-market appeal.

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/23/2024 1:12:02 AM

Echinosum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte
With that said, the new Etna? I had the exact same reaction, as ericindc. Wow! Holy crap! I don't see it.
...
I've really only found Paolo Bea's and Arnaldo-Caprai's Sagrantinos exceptional, but havent tried them all.

I apologise that the way I chose to paraphrase what I had been reading wasn't very skillful. There was never intended an implication that Etna and Sagrantino were at all similar as wines, but rather as a market phenomenon. The economist in me.

Just as Etna emerged onto the broader wine market's consciousness a few years ago as a good value alternative to something expensive - in that case Burgundy - so (what I was reading implied) Sagrantino has recently entered the consciousness of the market as a good value alternative to something expensive - in this case Barolo.

Though it doesn't seem to have entered the consciousness of the British market, as it is barely available here. Maybe it is more available in other markets.

Thanks for the comments on producers, those are useful.

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/23/2024 5:04:49 PM

recotte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte
With that said, the new Etna? I had the exact same reaction, as ericindc. Wow! Holy crap! I don't see it.
...
I've really only found Paolo Bea's and Arnaldo-Caprai's Sagrantinos exceptional, but havent tried them all.

I apologise that the way I chose to paraphrase what I had been reading wasn't very skillful. There was never intended an implication that Etna and Sagrantino were at all similar as wines, but rather as a market phenomenon. The economist in me.

Just as Etna emerged onto the broader wine market's consciousness a few years ago as a good value alternative to something expensive - in that case Burgundy - so (what I was reading implied) Sagrantino has recently entered the consciousness of the market as a good value alternative to something expensive - in this case Barolo.

Though it doesn't seem to have entered the consciousness of the British market, as it is barely available here. Maybe it is more available in other markets.

Thanks for the comments on producers, those are useful.

I interpreted your original post in the way you intended, that Sagrantino was having a "moment," not that the wines of Etna and Sagrantino-based wines were similar. I'm just a little incredulous that Sagrantino could be vinified in a way that would give it broad market appeal. The grape itself is thick skinned with large seeds, and then in Montefalco, for it to be released as a DOCG wine, it must have a minimum of a year of aging in oak, adding more tannin to an already tannic wine.... It doesn't make for a crowd pleaser! I have roughly 15 vines of it growing in my backyard for decorative purposes--I really do have a soft spot for the variety--and only the masochist in me makes me sample the grapes; the skins are so thick, I mostly end up spitting them out.

Of course, it can be and is blended (Bea does this, in addition to their 100% Sagrantino), into Sangiovese, and released as a Montefalco Rosso, but again, the ones I've had still needed a minimum of 7-10 years to tame the tannins.

If you find out more about specific producers that are making wines intended for earlier drinking, I'd be intrigued to find out who they are to try some out of sheer curiosity.

For "traditional" producers, looking back at my various purchases over the years, I'd also note that Tabarinni makes some excellent wines, as well. Terre de Trinci gave me that "aha moment," but their wines have proven to be mid-tier as I've tased more broadly. Dionigi is also a dependable, if not exceptional, source.

< Message edited by recotte -- 4/23/2024 5:12:52 PM >

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/28/2024 1:42:15 AM

penguinoid

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I got to try a couple when I was in Assisi last year - one 2017 and one 2016. Both were very good and still rather young at that age (unsurprisingly). I've not really come across it outside the region yet, though I just checked and noticed Tannico do stock a couple, mostly too young but they have a couple that are more than seven years old.

As others say, though, I think its requirement for ageing will keep it from achieving too much popularity, sadly. Lack of availability outside the region doesn't help either.

I'll have to look up some of the producers listed here and see if I can try a few more!

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/28/2024 9:58:31 PM

recotte

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Partly inspired by this thread, I opened a 2005 Paolo Bea Montefalco Rosso Riserva Pipparello tonight. As a Montefalco Rosso, it is a Sangiovese-dominant blend: 60% Sangio, 15% Sagrantino, and 25% Montepulciano. It's fairly light-bodied, and at 13% ABV with brisk acidity, it made for a fairly elegant pairing with pizza (butternut squash and prosciutto, and fennel with sausage and goat cheese). The tannins are still quite lively, 19 years in, not in any way overbearing, but quite unmistakable. My gums are quite tingly from them.

I am, admittedly, a Paolo Bea fanboy, but there really is something special about their wines.

For anyone interested, here are a couple of good blog posts about Sagrantino generally, and Paolo Bea specifically (not just about their Sagrantino):

Sagrantino generally

Paolo Bea specifically

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/30/2024 4:04:15 AM

forceberry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte

in Montefalco, for it to be released as a DOCG wine, it must have a minimum of a year of aging in oak, adding more tannin to an already tannic wine....

Oak barrels are used to tame down grape tannins, not to add more tannins to a wine. That's why modernist Barolo producers moved from old, large oak bottis to new, small oak barriques - the more you have contact with wood, the more oak will soften the tannins. The younger the oak is, the more there is oxygen transmission, which further softens the tannins.

If oak imparted a noticeable amount of tannins into wine, white wines aged in new oak barrels would be forbiddingly tannic. Bourbons, too.

IIRC the amount of oak tannins that get into wine is a tiny fraction compared to the grape tannins you find in a normal red wine - let alone in a wine as tannic as Sagrantino.

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 4/30/2024 5:26:07 AM

khmark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: forceberry

quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte

in Montefalco, for it to be released as a DOCG wine, it must have a minimum of a year of aging in oak, adding more tannin to an already tannic wine....

Oak barrels are used to tame down grape tannins, not to add more tannins to a wine. That's why modernist Barolo producers moved from old, large oak bottis to new, small oak barriques - the more you have contact with wood, the more oak will soften the tannins. The younger the oak is, the more there is oxygen transmission, which further softens the tannins.

If oak imparted a noticeable amount of tannins into wine, white wines aged in new oak barrels would be forbiddingly tannic. Bourbons, too.

IIRC the amount of oak tannins that get into wine is a tiny fraction compared to the grape tannins you find in a normal red wine - let alone in a wine as tannic as Sagrantino.

OK, so I have made lots of red wine using very little oak influence and those wines are often very fruity, forward and don't age very well. The oak definitely gives the wines some staying power, something cohesive or structured that the wines themselves don't possess. Of course the fermentation process can add or limit skin contact, but that alone doesn't account for all the tannin structure, and time in the barrel/on the oak is very important as well.

Don't forget that white wines are not fermented on the skin, so their juice is free & clear and any oak influence would be for structure and taste profile.

It's probably a combination of all the possible influences which is what makes winemaking more art than anything. (at least it used to be art, now I'm not so sure)

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RE: Montefalco Sagrantino - 5/5/2024 1:03:06 PM

forceberry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

OK, so I have made lots of red wine using very little oak influence and those wines are often very fruity, forward and don't age very well. The oak definitely gives the wines some staying power, something cohesive or structured that the wines themselves don't possess. Of course the fermentation process can add or limit skin contact, but that alone doesn't account for all the tannin structure, and time in the barrel/on the oak is very important as well.

What oak gives is controlled oxygen, which helps to stabilize the grape tannins, color and different kinds of flavor molecules. As I said previously, the amount of oak tannins in a red wine aged in new oak barrels is negligible compared to the amount of grape tannins, so aging a tannic wine in an oak barrel isn't going to add any more tannins to it, nor make the tannins more assertive.

Wines that see very little if any oak or any other oxidative aging vessel are fruity because that controlled oxidation destroys some of those youthful fruity flavor compounds. If you protect the wine from oxygen, of course it is going to be much more fruity. However, as it lacks the stabilization that comes from the slow, controlled oxidation in oak, it isn't going to be as ageworthy as wines aged in oak.

If oak tannins would help a wine age, this would mean that only wines aged in new oak barrels would age really well and the older the oak barrel, the less ageworthy the wine. However, Nebbiolos and Brunellos prove quite the contrary: wines aged in new oak barriques often struggle to last beyond 10-15 years, whereas wines aged in old, neutral oak botti tend to age for decades effortlessly. The same thing goes for, say, modernist oaky Rioja reds vs. Heredia's Rioja reds aged for up to 10 years in old oak barrels.

quote:

Don't forget that white wines are not fermented on the skin, so their juice is free & clear and any oak influence would be for structure and taste profile.

I didn't understand this point at all.

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